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Post by missingleg on Aug 7, 2013 20:35:54 GMT
I'm pretty sure my colleague and I made an error today.
We're not used to standing in multi-day cricket so I read the playing conditions for this 2 day game.
It said there must be a minimum of 102 overs (at a rate of 17/hr) bowled in the day. It also said that close of play is 6pm and that in the last hour (from 5pm) a minimum of 17 overs must be bowled.
At 5pm 83 overs had been bowled in the final day (19 remained) - we didn't signal the last hour because then the bowling team could have bowled the 17 in an hour and we would have ended up with just 100 overs in the day.
Instead, we signalled the last hour at 5.10 (when there were a minimum of 17 actually left in the day so as to avoid bowling fewer than the minimum).
From 5.10 to 6.00 19 overs had acutually been bowled (spinners on trying to win the match with the batting team 8 down in the 2nd innings and an innings win possible).
At 6.01 we called time as 104 overs had been bowled in the day, and more than the minimum 17 in the last hour were bowled, and we were beyond 6pm.
However, we were told we should have had time for at least 2 more overs as the last hour was signalled at 5.10.
We made a mistake - we should always play at least an hour in the last hour even if we have had the minimum number of bowled for the day, for the last hour and the time has gone beyond the close.
Just thought I'd share this because I feel cross & embarrassed and I wouldn't wish the same on others!
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Post by jaybee on Aug 8, 2013 6:54:08 GMT
Interesting. I too don't do multi-day matches so I write from a position of ignorance (it's never stopped me before so why stop now?). Surely what should happen will depend on precisely what the match regulations say. I don't know this so feel free to suggest an alternative scenario which might apply, subject to how the regs are phrased. - at 5pm the umpires call 17 (instead of 20) overs
- with 2 overs bowled by 5:10 and a further 17 up to 6:01 there have been 104 overs in the day and 19 in the final hour
- time therefore called at 6:01
If (and it's a big if) that were the case the right result would have been reached by a roundabout route.
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Post by missingleg on Aug 8, 2013 9:32:45 GMT
The only problem with calling the last hour at 5pm would have been that if the bowling side only managed the minimum of 17 in the hour then we would have ended up with fewer overs than the minimum required in the day.
I'm not sure why there was a need to have both a minimum in the day and a minimum in the last hour (the minimum in the day would have covered the last hour if the bowling side was slow).
Basically it meant we should have finished the game at 6.10 not 6.00 even though more than the minimum had been bowled by close of play (both in the day and the last hour) and we robbed the fielding team of a couple of overs which was bad umpiring.
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Post by umpire134 on Aug 8, 2013 15:28:16 GMT
You made a mistake, yes.
You should have signalled the last hour as per the competition regs (presumably this was an U17 County Championship game, based on what you've said).
The two regulations (1.5 and 2.1.1) are not competing.
The 102 minimum in a day would still have applied and you would have continued playing until that point had been reached.
As it was you attempted to be 'too clever' whilst umpiring the match and as a result you caused an unncessary problem.
Something to reflect on, and in future best to prepare more thoroughly for a match and have a greater appreciation of the match regulations. It is pretty inexcusable, especially at the level you are now umpiring, to be causing incidents solely through a misapplication of playing regulations.
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Post by gooders on Aug 8, 2013 17:14:09 GMT
@umpire134. It is a great pity we cannot all be so perfect. Having umpired games with missingleg, I know how thoroughly he checks competition regs before starting a match. The mistake made, pales in comparison to some of the howlers seen made by members of the ICC elite umpires currently standing (and sitting in front of a HD screen) in the ashes series. Keep going mate, you are doing fine by me.
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Post by missingleg on Aug 8, 2013 17:24:29 GMT
Please there's really no need to be quite so aggressive or make false accusations, this should be a friendly forum where we learn from one-another. We have all made, and do make, mistakes in our careers (from 5/7 ball overs at club cricket to Duckworth-Lewis miscalculations at First Class); it's not a question of trying to be too clever or not having prepared thoroughly (which would be criminal) it's a about continuous development to minimise and eradicate these errors.
You misunderstand - more than the minimum 102 had been bowled in the day; it was finishing 9 mins early at 6.01 where we erred. Fortunately for us, neither team realised this and were happy to shake on a draw and we all enjoyed the day.
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Post by viswajith on Aug 9, 2013 10:36:32 GMT
i appreciate missing leg for your frankness and big heart to share your experience with us....ofcourse a mistake is done...and that was avoidable....make sure that you learn a new thing from each and every mistake you made and never repeat the same mistake again...nobody in this world is perfect umpire...these all are part and parcel of umpiring...move on mate
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Post by wisden17 on Aug 11, 2013 9:51:52 GMT
Hi Missingleg, self-reflection is best thing to do after a game. I'm a little confused though by your last post, saying where you erred is finishing at 6.01, that aside was the main mistake not starting the last hour at 5:10 as opposed to 5?
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Post by missingleg on Aug 11, 2013 21:26:54 GMT
it went something like this (memory permitting!): the match was scheduled to finish at 6.00 a minimum of 102 were to be bowled in the day a minimum of 17 were to be bowled in the last hour at 5.00 83 overs were bowled. at 5.10 85 overs were bowled. at 6.01 104 overs were bowled.
basically the minimum for the day had been exceeded by close of play as had the minimum for the last hour but the last hour lasted less than an hour by 9 minutes.
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Post by gooders on Aug 11, 2013 22:28:52 GMT
My only question would be What would the penalty have been (if any) had there been less than 102 overs bowled in the day? If there was no penalty, then you could have called the last hour at 5.00 without any problem. It is hardly your fault if the fielding side cannot manage the required over rate, you would just have applied any sanctions the competition rules required.
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Post by wisden17 on Aug 11, 2013 23:45:29 GMT
I'm still a little unclear as to why you didn't have the last hour at 5 though.
At 5, 83 overs had been bowled (i.e. 19 left for day). If at 6 they hadn't bowled the 19 in the hour you would have continued play until the minimum of the 102 had been bowled. And then if necessary applied an over rate penalty (which if memory serves in this competition is a point deduction).
I'm a little unclear as to whether you see your mistake as being not having had the last hour at 5, as you should have done?
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Post by missingleg on Aug 12, 2013 10:06:24 GMT
i (we) were not sure whether to start the last hour at 5pm or when 17 overs remained (so as to satisfy the playing conditions) i think therefore our only mistake was to signal the last hour late.
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Post by wisden17 on Aug 12, 2013 17:25:07 GMT
Ah okay, I'm with you now. I am pretty sure correct course of action is as I put above, so last hour is an immovable thing (so would start at 5) and the minimum 102 overs in a day regulation would have meant you would consequently have required minimum of 19 overs in the last hour.
It does go to show that as is often the case the ECB rules and regulations are unnecessarily over-complicated, and could be reworded and rephrased in a number of areas to improve their clarity.
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Post by missingleg on Aug 13, 2013 15:49:29 GMT
In that case it sounds like the only error was signalling the last hour late because as you say it's immovable and 19 would have to apply rather than 17 (both of which were exceeded between 5pm-6pm) so I'm happy with that self-assessment. Thanks.
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Post by sillypoint on Aug 15, 2013 23:47:11 GMT
My tuppence worth is simply this: minimum means "at least" not "only". In this situation you had two minimums to deal with, and both have to be met for the playing conditions to be correctly applied. There had to be at least 102 overs for the day, and at least 17 in the last hour. Where the bowling team is a bit slow, as in your situation, both will be met from 83 at 5.00pm because in order to meet the daily minimum the last hour minimum will be exceeded. Last hour rules were brought in to prevent sides from unduly slowing up proceedings as matches (or days) near completion, so they really become significant if the bowling side has completed, say in your case 88 overs by 5.00pm. From there without the last hour rule they could put the brakes on and meet the daily minimum requirement with only 14 more overs; the last hour rule stops such tactics.
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