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Post by swerveman on Jun 25, 2007 22:01:16 GMT
What really? The "Right" direction. Surely you think having 3 separate organisations all doing the same thing is the best policy don't you! No, I don't, as a matter of fact. If we can get together in a good old British compromise, I'll be really happy. Which is the third organisation? You don't mean ICUS, do you? They just seem to want to train instructors, not do any actual umpiring.
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Post by wisden17 on Jun 25, 2007 23:20:47 GMT
Well they want to charge £50 p.a. for members, and make occasional press statements!
I'll be interested to see if ACU&S member's will agree to a merger with the ECBOA, personally I'm in favour of it, heck I think it is the only option. But the number of members who bang on about independence will be hard to convince. I think there's going to be quite an interesting postal ballot.
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mmm
Junior Contributor
Posts: 8
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Post by mmm on Jun 26, 2007 10:21:43 GMT
I'm writing to reply to Richard Jones' summation - para 2 - what are the 'other officials of the game'? para 4 - Yes 'ECB have the money' - they deprived ACU&S of £25,000 per annum, without notice, two years ago when ACU&S were at their most financially vulnerable. para 5 - will ECBOA members really have a say (vote) in the final decision? para 6 - 'RE-UNIFY' ?? surely this is a typographical error! - 'for the majority of members, there will be little change.' - apart from having no Democratic say in who (at the highest level) makes decisions on their behalf. last para - the only reason there are two 'like minded' organisations is ECB careerists decided to embark on this particular path of "conntrolling all aspects of the game". ECB & ACU&S have two seperate functions; ECB to promote (& govern?) Cricket in England & Wales & ACU&S to represent the (impartial) Judiciary of the game in UK (& elsewhere). ECBOA's function is yet to become clear - other than providing Officials for 'ECB'! games (OK that's a bit harsh!) Personally, I think that Umpire50 has a better understanding (see above posts) of the situation than an ACU&S Elected Councillor. I would like to hear of the proposed situation(s) should ACU&S members decide to vote 'Yeah' or 'Nay'.
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aha
Junior Contributor
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Post by aha on Jun 26, 2007 18:11:37 GMT
Oh I do love the sniff of intrigue, sir. What is it that you know that,
"Personally, I think that Umpire50 has a better understanding (see above posts) of the situation than an ACU&S Elected Councillor."
Pray tell, dear boy.
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jrbp
Junior Contributor
Posts: 5
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Post by jrbp on Jun 26, 2007 22:42:24 GMT
If I'm being particularly thick please excuse me, but I have never understood the need for an umpires' and scorers' organisation to be independent of the ECB. I keep hearing the mantra, but I don't understand the implications for me, as an ordinary league umpire. What does it take away from me if I am an umpire under the ECB umbrella? What strange and unusual acts are they likely to insist that I perform if I am to remain a member of ECBOA?
My other worry is that ACU&S are moving back to the old secrecy and internal politics that first convinced me to move to the ECB OA. When I read from an Elected Councillor "Rest assured, there is still much for members to learn yet" my first reaction is that ACU&S Elected Councillors have learned nothing themselves during the last three or four years (about communicating with their own members at any rate).
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Post by wisden17 on Jun 26, 2007 23:47:50 GMT
jrbp: I completely agree.
The issue of independence has puzzled me all along as well, and I really don't see the arguments in favour of it.
With regards to your second point, again complete agreement. If it wasn't for the notice on the ACU&S website we would be none the wise about what was going on. I know I haven't had any communication from my Regional Councillor about this matter.
I'm actually surprised that the ACU&S have got to this position of compromise so quickly, I knew it would happen (and am completely in favour of it) but I thought that bearing in mind the vitriol with which members such as Steven Wood wrote about the ECB would be too big a bar to any compromise. Maybe I was wrong. We shall see!
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aha
Junior Contributor
Posts: 3
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Post by aha on Jun 27, 2007 14:28:51 GMT
Well, that's absurdly paradoxical. First you are saying that Elected Councillors know nothing, and now its that they are being secret. Perhaps I might suggest that they are waiting for the big meeting (Special GC) so that they can brief the rest of us? Wasn't Richard Jones one of the officials that signed the recent 'joint statement' with ECB about training and examinations? If so, perhaps he does know more the situation than mmm gives him credit for.
Personally, I don't give a monkey's left testical for the politics of it all. I want to know how it will affect me and my umpiring (local league). The web site is poor, the magazine is rubbish, my league insures me already. (But then have you seen the 'playcricket' website, or seen anything from ECBOA? - I did get a key ring from them!). Nobody seems to cater specifically, as usual, for umpires in this god forsaken country! You are right about independence though. Who needs it in this day and age?
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jrbp
Junior Contributor
Posts: 5
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Post by jrbp on Jun 27, 2007 17:21:52 GMT
Hi aha, I'm not sure who you are responding to, is it me? If so I didn't intend to suggest that Elected Councillors know nothing and I apologise if I have given that impression. I'm simply pleading for the mistakes of the past not to be repeated, so that we can move umpiring forward without the politics and secrecy getting in the way. I'm just an ordinary league umpire, not active in either organisation, who would like to see a resolution to the current problems without more of the destructive arguments of the past.
Your comment about independence "Who needs it in this day and age?" dosn't help me to understand why grassroots umpires need to be independent of ECB.
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aha
Junior Contributor
Posts: 3
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Post by aha on Jun 27, 2007 18:44:27 GMT
Greetings, jrbp. No need to apologise. Elected Councillors probably don't know all that much anyway. Never see them around, do we?
No, you make an interesting point. "so that we can move umpiring forward..."
I'll put thispoint to you, and anyone else interested in responding. How do you see cricket umpiring (and scoring) moving forward? What would you do to move it forward?
I get your point about secrecy and not repeating mistakes, but I think they are a bit backward looking (if you do not mind me being so bold), but if we take those two points as read, what can the officials do to take us forward?
Lets assume we can elect anyone we like (well, we can, can't we?). Is there anyone we would like to see come on board? Do we sweep away the existing management? What do we replace them with?
Training and examination. Can we improve it? What can we do to improve it? What suggestions do we make, and to whom? I go on a course every year for a refresher. It used to be an elderly gentleman reading out of Tom Smiths. Now, its an elderly gentleman reading off a screen from a projector. Ok, I will say here and now that I alwayd learn something new every time, so I guess that it is of value, but isn't there more that I could be learning?
I don't know but I read everything I can find (precious little), I try to be fair to all sides (its difficult, I know), but I just don't know where the umpiring hierarchy is going. Or for what purpose.
What do you think?
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Post by johnfgolding on Jun 29, 2007 18:00:49 GMT
This whole process really intrigues me. Secrecy, accusation, misunderstandings seem to abound. Unfortunately I have seen this all before when I chaired a Working Group to merge to major engineering institutions.
Like many of the forum correspondence I would like this issue to be resolved one way or another as soon as possible, whichever way it goes.
However, what I would like to remind the officials of all the bodies involved as to why they have a membership. What I am going to say refers mainly to the ACU&S although in time it will refer to the others.
The reasons to me are very simple: 1. You had to join in order to get any training and recognition ( exam passes) for that training. 2. Members are insured.
Anything else is secondary.
The majority of members, I am sure, are complacent and just want the issue cleared up. It is that simple.
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mmm
Junior Contributor
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Post by mmm on Nov 6, 2007 12:50:27 GMT
Reply to Wisden 17's:-
" jrbp: I completely agree.
The issue of independence has puzzled me all along as well, and I really don't see the arguments in favour of it."
The issue of independance came up at a meeting I attended - this is one explanation -
Independence, autonomy, self determination, is something that most people aspire to - such as in Europe, in Scotland, in the developed world - whilst Politicians want keep them under one controlling body. I have always seen Umpires as Cricket's Judiciary & ECB as its Government. In the developing world such as in Pakistan, in Egypt - people are suffering in the attempt to stop the Government from controlling the Judiciary.
In our local terms, ECB may or may not bring in Rules & Regulations that will affect Umpiring & Scoring in Leagues. We will have to abide by them & will have no say, or very little in effect, if we do not like them or want to change them. A (reinvigorated) ACU&S (Ltd) would have a large influential voice, from a position of strength, in defending Umpires & Scorers from any excesses of the Regulating body.
I think that the stakes are too high, to gamble on trusting ECB's good nature & their history towards Umpires & Scorers inspires otherwise.
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Post by umpire50 on Nov 7, 2007 22:33:57 GMT
Gents
Just to remind you that 3 years ago there was only one organisation for umpires and scorers - the ACU&S. Then we had a few financial problems - caused by a Chairman who was good is his vision of the future but appalling at any form of financial control.
ECB saw the financial problems, withdrew its annual £25,000 grant to ACU&S and set up ECB OA in direct competition with Frank Kemp regularly predicting that ACU&S would go broke.
A few far-sighted ACU&S people produced something called the Rennaissance document - but, despite being tasked by General Council to make a presentation, were prevented from doing so by a dictatorial new Chairman, Geoff Lowden, who was regularly meeting with ECB. Feeling frustrated these members left to form ICUS.
So now there are three organisations where only one existed before.
Why should ACU&S be wound up? It is still doing what it always has done - successfully training umpires and scorers.
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Post by Number 6 on Nov 21, 2007 13:12:40 GMT
I see no reason for ACU&S to merge with / be taken over by / be destroyed by (delete as appropriate) ECB. I see many reasons why ACU&S should remain as an independant body.
Consequently I shall vote against any proposal other than for a continuation of an independant ACU&S.
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Post by Number 6 on Mar 13, 2008 16:56:57 GMT
And now look at the dogs breakfast that is the current ECBACO!
Training, what training?
Pete
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